Better Impact: Deep Listening and Intergenerational Connections
With Rhiannon Rosalind
Rhiannon Rosalind is the Chief Visionary Officer and Co-Founder of The Global Institute for Conscious Economics, a not-for-profit organization that strives to create systemic change within the new economy. The organization leads projects like HeARTwork, a campaign to look at the needs of women and non-binary employees in corporate companies who feel ignored or unheard. Using the tools of storytelling and music, HeARTwork focuses on how to gather real information through deep listening and a desire for understanding rather than cold data.
In Episode 4 of Scale Conscious, Rhiannon Rosalind joins us to discuss the challenges of starting her own venture, why deep listening is a huge benefit to leaders, and what it means to engage a truly diverse group of people looking towards a more equitable future.
Plug into this episode if…
You want to learn about resilience in the face of business challenges — both internal and external.
You want to find out about alternative approaches to co-creating the new economy.
You want to be challenged to re-think the ways in which you approach conversations about the topics you’re passionate about, especially on an intergenerational level.
Resources
Episode highlights
Why deep listening is so impactful
When you simply look at the data without actually listening to people’s personal stories, you only get half the story. Deep listening requires digging deeper and getting to the root of issues.
If teams don’t employ deep listening, they work in siloes — and solutions created in siloes never work for everyone.
To encourage deep listening, you also have to communicate in a way that’s easier to hear. HeARTwork shares women’s stories not in a traditional whitepaper, but using a more creative, storytelling approach. This lets employees share what they might normally be afraid to talk about in the workplace, and it makes it easier for others to actually listen to that message.
Co-creating is essential for lasting change
Change that is real — and lasting — comes from hearing everyone’s concerns and working together to co-create a new reality.
So many of us want to create change on a deep, meaningful level, but we’re not willing to get out of our echo chambers. True co-creation requires understanding diverse perspectives, with diverse voices from different genders, races, backgrounds, and ages.
There are many groups that aren’t being invited to the table that should absolutely be there.
The importance of doing work you’re passionate about
Pushing people to make change is important, but it can be exhausting. Sometimes it can be just as powerful to attract the right people to a movement.
As an entrepreneur, resilience isn’t about not being afraid. It’s about moving forward despite the fear.
When building a meaningful career, it’s important to follow your own intuition and desires. Everyone else will have ideas about what you should and shouldn’t do, but you’re the only person who knows what lights you up.
Angela Wallace: Hey there, welcome to Scale Conscious. I'm your host, Ange Wallace. In my first podcast series, I'm sharing some of the tactics startups can take to create conscious companies and build a regenerative future — for all. In this episode, I'm joined by Rhiannon Rosalind, president of the Economic Club of Canada, and founder and CEO of Conscious Economics, an organization committed to co-creating the new economy, radically, with love. Their goal? To create meaningful connections between diverse creative and corporate communities by using mindfulness, nature, financial therapy and art as tools for systemic change. I'm excited to speak to Rhiannon about HeARTwork, their newest nationwide research program, focusing on women in the workforce and the Canadian economy, to advance women and non-binary people in leadership. Let's get started.
Well, to get started, I thought it'd be fun to let listeners know sort of how we know each other, a little bit about our backgrounds. So we met at X University, formerly Ryerson, as you know, and really were students together in those formative years, just finding our way. And I'll never forget, actually, it was either May or June 2008 convocation. We were in line in our robes, to get ready to enter the auditorium, go across the stage. And you started telling me a little bit about this opportunity that had come up, it was something that was a little unexpected, but you were excited to see where it led you. And I believe that was the Economic Club of Canada back then. Right?
Rhiannon Rosalind: It was that opportunity with the Economic Club of Toronto. And that was kind of the wild thing about it, was a couple of weeks before we all graduated, I had met one of the founding board members of the Economic Club of Toronto at one of our school events on campus. And that was sort of where I was recruited. So I did start that job, like, immediately, where I think a lot of people like, I was thinking that I was going to be going back to do my Master's. And I was going to like, take some time and travel and like, relax for a second. But that wasn't in the cards for me. And yeah, the journey from there is obviously one that I think is very public now.
Angela Wallace: Yes.
Rhiannon Rosalind: But so funny that you remember that, that's hilarious.
Angela Wallace: Yeah, well, and at the time, you know, to put it in context. I remember Barack Obama was very early in his first presidency, we'd just entered the Great Recession, you know, sort of all these things were sort of swimming around 2008. Fast forward, that whole journey with Economic Club of Canada, you're sat on a stage before the pandemic kicked off with none other than President Obama. So it's been amazing to watch your journey and see how that evolved for you.
Rhiannon Rosalind: Thank you, it really is like a wild journey. And even for me, it kind of doesn't feel always real.
Angela Wallace: Yeah.
Rhiannon Rosalind: And so, it's an interesting path. And even before that, and before the career, I think I've walked a pretty interesting path. So it maybe is, there's something going on here.
Angela Wallace: Yeah. I like it, stick with it. But you've been really so honest, on social, I've really admired it, you know, reflecting on the last couple of years, especially for your business and businesses like yours, the effect of the pandemic, you know, really, in some real ways, emotionally, financially. Tell us a little bit about what that's been like, the last couple of years and the evolution you've experienced?
Rhiannon Rosalind: Absolutely. So I am in the live events industry. The Economic Club of Canada is the country's largest and only national business platform in the country. And so we were doing approximately 100 live events a year across Canada. So you can imagine that the pace and just you know, the travel and all of the things that go with that. And for me, you mentioned, you know, sharing a stage with Barack Obama, our last major public event before the pandemic just so happened to be in January of 2020. And for me, it was really significant because it was the launch of a new platform that I was starting that was the Global Institute for Conscious Economics. So the goal there was, you know, to really bring a diverse group of Canadians together. And when I say diverse, I don't just mean you know, diverse in gender, diverse in race, I mean, also diverse in age.
So the the model was that for every single ticket that was purchased by a business leader or a policymaker, that we would gift another ticket to a young leader, 30 and under, and that we would kind of all share the tables and split all the tables and literally give folks a seat at the table. And so, it was a huge risk for me. I had done this kind of mechanism a few years earlier with Michelle Obama with her first speech on Canadian soil and it worked really well, like the business community really got it. We were able to donate half the stadium. And so I, you know, like I guess a typical entrepreneur, I was like, "Okay, I've tried this, and it worked. So we're gonna do it again. But we're gonna do it 10 times bigger."
Angela Wallace: Because why not? Let's go.
Rhiannon Rosalind: Why not? Yeah. So, it's funny because I've always been someone to really trust my instincts and my intuition, actually, in business, which I know sounds a little strange. But I did have this instinctual feeling that this wasn't really right. It's just not right timing. And the reason why, because it was an event that had to be pulled together in six weeks. These things happen really, really quickly. And it was right over sort of the winter holiday time where it's generally a slower buying period and slower events period. And so that was like the right in the core of my sales cycle for pulling all of this off. The other thing that I knew is that President Obama had been to Canada quite a few times, whereas Michelle, that was her first speech on Canadian soil.
But what I thought was that the business community would really still get it and want to give folks an opportunity to be there that couldn't, because the last time he spoke in Toronto, it was $10,000 for a table. There was no opportunity to even buy an individual ticket. And I ended up getting invited by a corporate leader. And I was just like, really sad — sad to see no young faces, like sad to see no one from the Black community really represented. And so I really wanted to do it differently. And when we did this, it was a huge risk — it was a risk financially, it was a risk in terms of what I was asking leaders to do, it was a risk on all fronts. And it ended up being the largest financial loss that I had ever experienced in my history of running the organization.
And that would have been, in and of itself, like, I felt very close to like my own nervous breakdown after that already, because it was just an unbelievable six weeks of like, it felt like we were running a campaign, like a war room, like it was just like, night and day, like insane, and my nervous system was fried. And then all of a sudden, the pandemic hit. And of course, every single event and piece of business to follow was pulled. And so I found myself in the most debt that I could have ever imagined. I found myself feeling like the biggest failure. And you know, I know the pandemic is sort of out of our control, and these industries have been hit. But I internalized it, like, I internalized all of it. Like, if I had made a smarter decision before this, my staff and my team, we'd have more of a buffer, we'd have more of an ability to survive this or to figure it out. And so it was just dark. And on top of that, when I describe 100 events a year and the pace, when you finally stop, when you finally like, literally get pushed into your house with, like, two kids homeschooled and all of it, like my nervous system didn't know how to adjust to that.
So the mental health, all of the pieces that go with it, and just this sort of despair of like, this thing that makes me feel like me is gone. And the way in which I can, you know, help and create conversation and change, and all of it is gone. And the other thing that I'll reveal too, is that I grew up in a low-income household, and there was a lot of different things that I faced. And one of those things was we didn't have technology in our house. I didn't have a computer growing up.
Angela Wallace: Right.
Rhiannon Rosalind: So I used to get my, you know, friends and boyfriends to like, type my essays. And it wasn't until Ryerson that I actually like, finally my partner who ended up becoming my first husband was like, "I'm not doing this for you, like, I'm not typing all of these essays. Like, there's no way, you've got to figure it out." So I have always been and of course, like I learned and blah blah blah and I've obviously gotten better, but I have a real fear around technology. And so the idea that in this like crisis point that now I have to figure out on top of, you know, homeschooling my kids, dealing with the fear that I have to now somehow, like, make a new event platform digital and like figure that all out.
Angela Wallace: Yeah, go whole digital.
Rhiannon Rosalind: I was like, what the actual eff?
Angela Wallace: Yeah. [laughs]
Rhiannon Rosalind: So it was just — it's been a time. It's been a real time. And we did figure it out, for anyone who's listening.
Angela Wallace: Yes, you have.
Rhiannon Rosalind: But it wasn't easy. And it's been like, a kicking and screaming adventure.
Angela Wallace: Absolutely. Well thank you for your candor and your honesty. I think so many of us have kind of hobbled through this experience of a global health crisis. And as you say, it's completely out of our control. And the thing that confronted me the most as like, a mother, a professional, just as a person, a daughter separated from my mom unable to visit her, you know, it's just the uncertainty and like... How have you felt? How have you built out some resilience on your team with Conscious Economics around this idea of navigating the uncertainty?
Rhiannon Rosalind: Well, it's not for everyone, that's for sure. And so I'll be, again, honest, like, there's been a lot of changes on my team and a lot of people who are like, "You know what, like, I need something a little bit more predictable right now." Even though the world isn't predictable, like we are a startup, is what it is now and we're stepping into this very different space. And it is public now. But like, I chose to sell the Economic Club during this whole period. So that was a huge decision for me. It was a decision that was based on a) an alignment, a feeling that I have paid my dues on that platform. I've tried very, very hard to expand the notion of what that platform was really all about and what it was meant to be. And I pushed up against, you know, against the grain for a long time.
Angela Wallace: Yup, you sure did.
Rhiannon Rosalind: And when I got a little tired, like, I was, like, "You know, I'm ready to actually create a space where maybe I'm not pushing so hard, but I'm actually drawing in, inviting those that are ready." And so it was a really tough decision. And a lot of people were like, "You're crazy. This is so insane. Like, this is so successful. Why would you ever do this?" And a lot of people who were like, "You know, you were lucky to be there in the beginning, it was such a like, fluke and an interesting story. But like, now what?"
Angela Wallace: Yes.
Rhiannon Rosalind: "You're nothing without it," sort of thing. And that's just again, people will always project their, what they think is best for you. I think we all have experienced that. And what I will always sort of remain is like, if I'm not lit up, if I don't feel aligned in my heart, then I can't work hard, like I actually am not motivated. And so I had to make that hard decision. I lost a lot of people, not in a bad way, but in a way that where it was like, "Okay, well, it's time for us to part ways," or like, "Well, this is why I was here, because I believed in this work. Maybe not that."
Angela Wallace: Yes.
Rhiannon Rosalind: It is, and it has been, a big transition. And I would say that that's been hard. It's hard as an entrepreneur to not take it personally when people move on.
Angela Wallace: Yeah, yeah.
Rhiannon Rosalind: It really is. Like, I don't know how else to describe it. But the reality is that the resilience comes when you face all of the scariest things that you feared and you're still alive.
Angela Wallace: Yeah, you're still here [laughs].
Rhiannon Rosalind: You're still here, and then you, you know, literally put one foot in front of the other. It doesn't mean you're not scared, it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. It doesn't mean you have it all figured out. But that you keep trusting in — for me, my heart. And like, what my heart wants to do and what I believe. And so without that, you know, I don't get to put my head on the pillow and actually drift off into like, a slumber.
Angela Wallace: Yes.
Rhiannon Rosalind: So I have to be able to do that in the end of the day, I have to be able to sit with myself. And that in and of itself is what brings my resilience forward.
Angela Wallace: Absolutely. And I love that, this idea of allowing ourselves the space for mindfulness to pursue meaningful work. How we define it for ourselves, right? Without necessarily letting those external forces or voices dictate how to measure that success even, and what that looks like.
Rhiannon Rosalind: Yeah.
Angela Wallace: Yes, yes, absolutely. Speaking of that, like pivoting into newness, and next chapters, I'm so excited to hear about your newest program with HeARTwork. Can you tell us a bit about this? Let us know, what are you working on? Why is this three-year program going to be so powerful for women and non-binary people in the new economy in Canada?
Rhiannon Rosalind: Yeah. So thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to speak about it. Even in its name, HeARTwork is like—
Angela Wallace: Yes.
Rhiannon Rosalind: That is very new economy. That's not even a term we really hear used in business. And really, the whole sort of ethos around HeARTwork really comes from this idea that it's time for us to, instead of looking at the barriers that women face through this very data-driven numbers, facts, and figures sort of lens, that it's time for us to really do some research on the emotional and social barriers that women are feeling and facing. And I keep coming back to one of the biggest gaps I think, in our country right now, when we speak about the most important economic issues is this generational divide.
And so our generation, we've been sort of brought up in a world where we were learning about the issues of inequity and inequality, and we are hungry and we move faster and we want things you know, to happen at a quicker speed.
Angela Wallace: Now [laughs].
Rhiannon Rosalind: We don't want to be told "Wait, slow down, tomorrow." And we've been sort of vilified by other generations that we're impatient and out of touch. But the reality is the world is moving at a faster pace. And I always say that each generation that comes onto this planet is designed to be more evolved than the one before, and that's not in a mean way at all. That's just to say that maybe there's something going on here. So what's been happening, the trend and especially over the course of the pandemic, is women are leaving the labor force en masse.
Angela Wallace: Yes.
Rhiannon Rosalind: And this has been going on, even before the pandemic, especially those women that are in that coveted pipeline that, you know, could be tapped for C-suite, they end up deciding to leave. They leave and it's not because they're not smart and talented — they're so smart and talented — they leave and they say, "I want to start my own thing," or "I want to work in a smaller environment where I can have more balance, where I can have more anonymity, where I can have more freedom, where I can be an individual." And this is an intersectional issue that, of course, as you keep layering on the different intersections of race and gender, and all of these different pieces, you start to hear even more depth of the stories of feeling like I —
Angela Wallace: That's right.
Rhiannon Rosalind: That we just don't belong, or that we're not seen, or we're not valued. And so HeARTwork is a three-year national project. It's been designed in this Conscious New Economy sort of lens. So year one, and this is what we're in right now, is a deep listening exercise. We're building sacred containers with partners and community groups from all across the country. And we're gathering small groups of women and using storytelling as a means to connect and to share, what are the emotional things that we're feeling? What are the things that we haven't been able to voice or to say that we wouldn't dream of saying, because of all of the different politics and bureaucracy and just the coldness of the space? And so, profoundly moved by the stories that we're hearing, we have incredible partners at the table with us, The Indigenomics Institute, CEE Centre For Young Black Professionals, Canadian Arab Institute. We've been working with UN Women and On Canada Project, ONEPeopleTO, sorry I have to shout them out—
Angela Wallace: Of course.
Rhiannon Rosalind: Because each of them bring something so special to the table. And so we want to see this lead to systemic change. And so year two, using the currency that I have of the deep relationships with corporate Canada that I've been able to build over the last 14 years being with the Economic Club, we are inviting 10 corporate organizations to actually come to the table with us. And there's specific parameters that they have to agree to, in order to be at that table. One is they have to agree to assemble a team within their organization to be part of the project. And that must include a C-level executive, and multi-layer management as well as young people that are within the organization. So again, this very intergenerational group that's coming to the table. And together, we will analyze the research that's come out of this deep listening exercise. We will look at it with our eyes and our different lenses together. And together, we will develop a 10-point framework of solutions to really, really deal and address with what is going on here, and what is being felt in our hearts.
And in the last phase, those corporate champions are agreeing to implement at least two out of the 10 policies. We're really hoping and encouraging for you know, all 10 to be implemented. And we're finding different ways to incentivize that. And then measuring, and talking, and figuring out what worked and what didn't. And one of the really important, pertinent things here that I think sometimes you know, we miss, even in our generation is, like, we can't steamroll over anybody. So like, we can't, you know, we may feel this way so passionately, but then there's another story. And there's another version and another truth. And so, again, when we are creating this framework, together, intergenerationally, intersectionally, we all have a part to play in adjusting and understanding why maybe some things can't be or why some things have to be, or whatever that may be. And so out of this project will be a white paper release, where we will, you know, make public all of these recommendations in the process. But again, the white paper, we're kind of turning it into an art piece, because we really believe that there needs to be a new language in talking about this and like, how many times have you read a white paper?
Angela Wallace: I have like an abandoned folder of them on my desktop. Like, I will read this one day.
Rhiannon Rosalind: Exactly. And so it's like, why can we not turn, you know, these conversations of policy and infrastructure change and economics, and all of these into things that actually inspire us to want to engage with them. And the last piece, which is super cool through our new platform of Conscious Economics, Lunar Studios, which is our music platform for social change. We have three amazing emerging songwriters that have been traveling, well not really traveling actually, because a lot of it's digital. So just putting it out there, but coming with us across the country to these gatherings, and they will be writing a song based on you know, what is coming up and what is coming out and that song will be produced by the legendary Canadian Serena Ryder, who I know, we all know, she was just inducted into our Canadian Hall of Fame.
Angela Wallace: Yes.
Rhiannon Rosalind: And really exciting stuff. So I really hope that we can rally and we can bring solutions. And those solutions have to be based on hearing the truth first. And so the project is funded through the federal government through the WAGE, so the Ministry of Women and Gender Equity, and it's really exciting for us as an organization to be able to work within the parameters that we're given, but also make it our own. And so that is what we've done. And even like, when the project was approved, the fact that even like, its name, HeARTwork, I was like, "They approved it?" I was like, "What?"
Angela Wallace: Stop, no [laughs].
Rhiannon Rosalind: Yeah, I was like, "Wow." So you know, I think a lot of the times, even when we use this different language and stuff, like people can really like, write it off and be like, "Oh, that sounds fluffy," or "That sounds airy." And that's like part of the problem, too, I really feel. So even with the language that we're trying to use, we're really trying to invite this new idea of what work can mean and what the important integration of feeling aligned with like mind-body-spirit in our places of work, within the walls of corporate Canada, this is important for our generation, it is, and we are asking for that to be respected and honored. And it is part of you know, the idea of decolonizing our places of work as well. And so this is an important thing, and I'm excited to be doing it.
Angela Wallace: Yeah, well, it's so impressive. Congratulations on the project and the program, all the funding. And I'm particularly impressed with the deep listening. Because I, like so many humans, I tend to listen, to respond, instead of listen to understand. And holding that deep listening space, you know, it opens opportunity for discovery, but also discomfort — but you never get meaningful change without some of that discomfort.
Rhiannon Rosalind: Exactly.
Angela Wallace: And so it's just a beautiful thing that you're building there. I'm so excited. So I know, we're going to come up on closing out our conversation, the time flies by when you're talking about so many incredible things. So I wanted to just hold one last space at the end here. You know, we've talked about that intergenerational access about bringing young people to the table. And we met in our formative years, you know, uni years. So I was just hoping you could share one last nugget, one last wisdom, especially for the next generation coming up. So many of them are already living in their truth as activists and advocates, entrepreneurs and community leaders. If you could leave us with one kind of galvanizing thought for them, what would you want to pass on?
Rhiannon Rosalind: Well, I think especially given what's going on right now in our world, and I know that so many young leaders are feeling so called to lead, to step into their, you know, change-making persona in terms of activism, or whatever else. But one thing that I always say is that we can't be in the echo chamber. We can't be only speaking amongst ourselves. And it's very, very easy for us to put our thoughts and ideas forward only amongst ourselves. And you know, like, Instagram is a perfect example. It's like, a particular generation is there. And then a particular generation is on Tik Tok. And a particular generation is on Facebook still. And so you know, and so what I really encourage, and I know it kind of can feel scary, but we need to actually come together, like the older generations, the ones that you feel you're kind of pushing up against, they need to hear what you're saying. And you need to also hear what they're saying.
Angela Wallace: Yes.
Rhiannon Rosalind: And we can't create the lasting kind of change unless we can all hear one another and start to actually design and co-create together. So it's like, the idea of cancelling out certain groups or like pushing certain groups completely out — it's not leading. And that's not heart work. Like it's not, it's not coming from that space of compassion and understanding that we hope to receive. And so in order to, you know, you kind of get what you give, and you give what you get. I really, really believe that. So, try and find out ways to — you don't have to agree, but understand. Understand why people are the way they are, understand where they come from, understand what their unique story was. This is my advice.
Angela Wallace: Yeah, seek to understand. I love that. It's a good note to end on.
Rhiannon Rosalind: Yes.
Angela Wallace: Well, thank you Rhiannon. I'll be watching everything you work on.
Rhiannon Rosalind: Aw, thank you.
Angela Wallace: Thanks for joining us.
Thanks for listening to Scale Conscious. I'm Ange. This show's produced by Lead Podcasting. Special thanks to team members Kendall and Arlisha. Discover more about our work with CPG startups at scaleconscious.com. And if you liked what you heard, be sure to subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast player, so you catch the next episode.
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Scale Conscious is a podcast that explores the tactics startups can take to create conscious companies and build a regenerative future for all. Join host Ange Wallace as she explores building purpose-driven businesses and scaling consciously with some of today’s bravest and most impactful leaders.